Talk:July 21
From LIS 460 Summer 2007
- What are your questions about the legal implications of technology in the school library?
- What are your answers for your classmates related to the topic?
- What do you think is the hardest part of dealing with this topic when it comes to working with teachers and students?
Talk about those topics here.
tricky
Love this disclaimer (see below) from alluc.org. So it's a site that just compiles the videos, but leaves it to the user to download responsibly? The site gives no alternatives (ie. pay for use), though. Give me a break! - Tina
Disclaimer
The author is not responsible for any contents linked or referred to from his pages - If any damage occurs by the use of information presented there, only the author of the respective pages might be liable, not the one who has linked to these pages. Allfg.org and Alluc.org doesn't host any content
All Allfg.org/Alluc.org does is linking to content that was uploaded to popular Online Video hosting sites like dailymmotion.com/Youtube. All youtube/dailymotion users signed a contract with the sites when they set up their accounts wich forces them not to upload illegal content. By clicking on any Links to videos while surfing on Allfg.org you leave Allfg.org, Allfg.org cant take the responsibility for any content hosted on other sites.
From Linda on Allfg
There have been court cases to see if linking is a copyright violation in any way. As far as I know the only time it has been found to be so is if the link is a money-making operation. For example, if Ticketmaster links to Microsoft and makes money from that link. But, most people do have link disclaimers because sometimes visitors blame the linker for providing access to the content. Does that make sense?
So the disclaimer is more for the visitor than the people/organization/production who actually own the rights to the videos being linked to? I would have thought the opposite! Thanks for the clarification- Tina
And don't forget the little disclaimer we get at the bottom of this wiki. "DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!" Though we have nothing listed Project:Copyrights for this wiki. What is that anyway? -KC
The Hardest Part
I think the hardest part about copyright in the school would be the awkward moment when copyright law needs to be enforced. Having to break it to a teacher that a video,image, or excerpt they want is not legally available to them is bound to create exasperation and eye-ball rolling. We are going to hear a lot of this: c'mon, who's to know/we won't get caught/what's the big deal, ect.
That's difficult when as a profession we have a reputation for being so amenable and helpful to our coworkers.
Breaking the bad news to students wouldn't be as difficult since it's not a peer-to-peer relationship.
--Parks 10:22, 22 July 2007 (EDT)
I have found that teachers are just as surprised to find out what may be a copyright infringement as the students are. The only time this has been awkard is when it has been brought to a teacher's attention and they disregard it. I have had teacher's ask me for extra handouts for other teachers when I have done copyright lessons for the kids. KF
YES- we'll definitely have to contend with the eyeball rolling. But that's where I appreciated Stephanie Gold's article "Right to Copy?" Definitely the entire school board has be sold on enforcing copyright and educating teachers about the current issues. Training seminars and workshops would help bring the awareness, and with this awareness hopefully our jobs will be easier (we could then give "gentle reminders" to our colleagues during staff meetings?) Teachers are generally law-abiding folks by nature, so once they're hip to the concerns and issues, I'm sure the awkward moments of enforcing copyright would be less and less.- Tina
The Gold article made me realize the big schools/school districts are almost at an advantage when it comes to creating sound copyright policy. They are big, on the radar, so to speak. I wonder if smaller schools are too familiar, intimate, to create such over-arching policies. Maybe small schools can band together and create a tech consortium...less eyeball rolling with more clout, right? --Parks 19:17, 22 July 2007 (EDT)
Good point about smaller school districts not being on the radar.... I like the idea of a tech consortium in these cases.- Tina
I agree with Tina in that teachers are "generally law-abiding folks" who will definitely follow the rules and enforce copyright, but they need to be given the tools in order to do so. Obviously training and workshops are necessary, so that educators learn about the issues at hand in terms of copyright infringement. I also think that having software, such as TurnItIn, which tracks plagiarism in student work, will help teachers work with students who think they can get away with copying of off of the web without giving credit to the author. TurnItIn would probably also indicate what sources students are going to on the web so that teachers and librarians would be able to see how they can lead students to more appropriate sources. The Gold article also stated that Groton purchased a public performance license in order to show movies, which is another great idea and very helpful to teachers and librarians. The only problem that I see in getting these great ideas off to a running start in other school districts is money. How would one install such a program if they are in a community that cannot even afford workshops?-Jennie S.
Linda on Hardest Part Part 1
There have been legal cases with big and small cases about copyright infringements. Even individual teachers, and parents, and kids have been sued. Sometimes it's a big noise just so the company that owns the content gets the word out that we are tough. Sometimes it's more. But, still, all involved in school need to know there are consequences. However, is it as easy to talk about those consequences when the ease of using illegally is so much a part of the use?
Public Performance Licensing from Linda
This is actually a very reasonable price and usually not something that library teachers have to struggle with getting $ for. Also remember that the streaming video is another option for high quality video for teachers. A trial of this service usually does all the selling of the product. Teachers LOVE! it.
The Hardest Part 2
The hardest part for me, and I imagine many people my age, which can mean new teachers, is remembering that copyright is serious and important and we should strive to do things legally and correctly. Gold's article and some of the accompanying material was very helpful in terms of showing the importance of training staff about copyright and providing some resources for the actual dos and don'ts.
Learning about and using Creative Commons has been helpful and even inspiring as to how to teach students about copyright.
What else should I read? Where else can I find out about copyright law in language that will make sense (rather than what CC calls legal code)? --Erin--Daly4 11:32, 23 July 2007 (EDT)
Where for more
Try a Google search on kids copyright see what you find out.
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To clarify, it's not that I don't understand Why we need to comply with copyright, it's that I don't really understand How. --Daly4 11:42, 23 July 2007 (EDT)
Erin you wrote something on your blog that I thought was an interesting way of looking at this - tell others what that was. (If you don't know what I mean read my comment on that post.)
______________________________________
I wrote on my blog that I liked Creative Commons because it focuses on what you can do with a work rather than what you can't do. I also wrote that I'm not sure that people my age and younger would even take enough notice of this to use a Creative Commons license, but I guess that's what we librarians and educators are here for... I think if we start by using copyright, perhaps in the form of licensing our work or teaching students to license their work and then using the work of others properly, we may begin to understand. --Daly4 08:41, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
Along the same lines, I think the hardest part will be explaining it to teachers and students in a way they will really understand. Rather than just being the watchdog--catching copyright violations and alerting people when they've made a mistake--I'd like to be able to transform the law into something that everyone can understand, and in order to do that, I'll need to become fluent in it myself. To throw in a token cliche, you learn something best when you teach it, but this is something I'd feel uncomfortable teaching until I felt really solid and confident in my understanding of it.
-Becky
I agree with Erin--I'm a fan of the positive aspect of Creative Commons. It encourages me to share and be friendly if I know that other people are sharing and being friendly. It makes me respect it more. And to Becky's point, yes, I agree that one of the hardest parts will be explaining it and making sure you've covered everything you/they need to know without being overwhelming. It's hard to boil it down to the simplest level when even that's pretty complex! However, I think that putting a positive spin on it is a good way to start. I like the idea of having students create their own licenses, having clear expectations, and taking measures to prevent violations before they start. We need more positive spin on this-- it's overwhelming as is. More about this on my blog... :) Elisabeth
Absolutely true from Linda
The law is very hard to understand and interpret. I think too that it might be too complicated in general at this point. The whole thing just needs to be rethought within the context of what technology now allows provides. The DMCA was supposed to do that but.... In terms of starting from scratch, if I were to say to you, write the "rules" of a new copyright law for a technological world, what would it include? (You in this context means anyone in this class.)
Part II from Linda
What about using Creative Commons licensing with teachers and students as a way to make it real? Do people think that would work?
Yes! Licensing my blog really made me start to think about what I am comfortable with others doing with my work, and thus to think about how other people must feel about the work they have put out into the world. We need to use a thing to understand it and I think this would be helpful on a schoolwide or communitywide level.
--Daly4 08:44, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
I said in an email to Linda, when I notified her about creating my license, that having students create a license for their work would create the level of engagement we are always striving for when teaching anything--I'll be sure to make the 5th and 6th graders who create blogs add a CC license.
--Parks 19:58, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
Oh yes, I also think that it will be a big help to students to create their own licenses. It also made me consider carefully what other people might use my blog for and what was really important to me-- what was I really trying to protect? I think that once students are on the other end -- deciding what's important enough to protect-- they will think carefully about what other people want to protect. That will probably go over much better than another set of rules they have to follow.
--Elisabeth
After discovering how quick and easy it is create licenses for blogs and other digital contents, I will definitely make it a point of instructing students how to license their blogs. Realistically, I doubt that anyone would want to steal their ideas, but I think that when a student is able to officially license his or her work, it contributes to a certain of pride within the student. Students should be proud of their work, and I feel that by licensing it, they are showing that they care about what they learning and contributing. -Paul
"Realistically, I doubt that anyone would want to steal their ideas" Why not? I think sometimes young adults have better ideas than we do as adults. They are not pidgeon holed into one way of looking at something (like a classic piece of literature - for example) that we as adults have grown accustomed to thinking of in one way or another. If I were looking for a fresh look at things (and incredibly immoral) I might steal some ideas from a young adult's blog (but of course Italic textI Italic text wouldn't do that... I'm sure some people would.) If it's not copyrighted, it's still wrong to take someone else's idea, but legally you'd never be able to prove that it was their's first. -- Erica
How to comply
I found copyright guidelines for administrators to be pretty clear examples - not always what I would have expected, but practical examples. -Maryrose
I do find that useful, and looked at it a bit more extensively this time, but I guess I want one like it for the average person, not just for schools. --Daly4 09:01, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
Turnitin
As I was listening to this week’s podcast about copyright and Turnitin, I was struck by the similarities between Turnitin and Google Books. Linda mentioned that there have been lawsuits by students who have taken issue with the way papers are uploaded and saved to Turnitin – not only to be checked against previous works, but those papers also become part of the searchable database. It is interesting that Google Books faces similar scrutiny. Google Books allows for full text searching of books, and while they don’t display copyrighted works, there is ongoing debate about the legality of scanning books and making the text freely searchable.
Linda, have the lawsuits related to Turnitin been resolved? What was the result?
-Amity
Linda on Turnitin lawsuits Amity I don't think they've been settled but I'm checking and will come back tonight with more.
Turnitin Lawsuits
Still looking for update but found an article from the Washington Post when the lawsuit was first filed.
This article totally reinforced my distaste Turnitin. The premise of presumed guilty, and putting student's papers through a comparative scan just seems like such a misuse of technology and a laziness on the part of the teacher. (do you want me to tell you what I really think :) ) Like Becky suggests there are other ways of getting students to think creatively, in their own words, using their own knowledge: gathering information using graphic orgnizers, guided inquiry, ways that don't ask them to just reguritate what they just read. Teach them how to aviod plagaizing. And as educators, we have a responsibility to read and respond to what our students have taken the time to write, not hand it over to a machine. Well, I guess I'll stop there.... Amy
Amy, I'm with you. Students totally know that Turnitin is really just the teachers checking on them. It definitely sends a "I don't trust you" message. I agree that we have a responsibility to teach the students the standards to which we want to hold them. --Elisabeth
Turnitin
I think there is a fine line with using student work and violating copyright laws... Before starting this program, I was a huge copyright violator, with music and movies, and I never really thought about the implications of stealing someone else's work. It wasn't until one of my previous classes that discussed copyright law that I even realized that I was doing anything wrong. It never occured to me that students would be concerned with their work/rights being violated when there is no copyright assigned to papers written for school. I always assumed that when I turned a paper in, it was no longer my property, but rather property of the school or the professor - which is a strange assumption to make - but because Turnitin wouldn't be using my paper in any sort of published capacity, just as a document to scan others against, I probably would not have a problem with this.
I agree that most teachers know when their student's have plagerized or haven't written a paper by themselves. I had an incident this year where a student's paper was clearly written by his grandmother - and while I wouldn't be able to check this online - all I had to do was ask his a few questions about the topics he supposedly had written about to know for sure that it was not written by him. I don't think services like Turnitin are necessary - but I don't think there is a huge violation of student's rights by using them. - Erica
I agree that the plagiarism part of it isn't necessary... but I sure like Turnitin as a marking organizer and assignment submitter!- Tina
I think we used to have Turnitin in our school district but it was too expensive to continue. We have caught most of our incidents by Googling sentences or phrases that seem out of character with a student's writing. - KF
Linda on Turnitin
I want to hear more about student rights in this Turnitin age. What do others think about technology as a tool to catch cheating students?
More on Turnitin
There's also the issue of trust and respect between students and teachers when using services like Turnitin. When I read a paper that I suspect has some unoriginal content, I check the textbook we're using, the papers the student cited, and type a few suspicious phrases into Google, but I certainly don't do this for every paper and I don't mention it to the student unless I actually found something to be concerned about. Do we really want to develop this culture of guilty until proven innocent in the schools? As a student I think I'd be offended if every one of my papers was checked against a database. Maybe we just need to develop more effective teaching strategies for getting through to students exactly what is acceptable and what isn't when it comes to paraphrasing and citing in their own papers. Instead of addressing this through papers, maybe you could have short assignments they do in class where they are only allowed to use their own knowledge and information from a chapter or a single paper you give them, and then in groups or pairs or as a class you could go over each student's work to analyze it, for instance. In other words, maybe the solution is to improve our teaching, not to catch our students cheating. -Becky
What do you think?
Of this take on the Turnitin issue, plagiarism, etc.? This article talks about giving students assignments like Becky suggests, assignments that requires students own thoughts on a topic not paraphrasing, citing, etc.
A good checklist
Along the lines of Becky's suggestion, I think this list of suggestions for avoiding plagiarism in the first place is very practical and positive (especially items 5 - 11.) I also checked out their page on why students plagiarize, and think it made good sense. These are good to think about when making assignments for research, and when helping students with their research.
NoodleBib provides a way to tag the resources/citations you have collected, and the ability to link a citation with its source, on a virtual index card. I think if students have access to tools that help them get and stay organized during the research process, that might be a big help to many.
-Maryrose
We use NoodleBib - I wish I had it when I was in school. I bring up plagiarism and how most of it is unintentional (I believe this to be true) and what are some tools that students can use to advoid it. Then I introduce them to NoodleBib. Some teachers do not want the students to use it because they think they should learn how to format a citation on their own. - KF
I came across another article on plagiarism on the AUTC’s (Australian Universities Teaching Committee) CSHE (Centre for the Study of Higher Education) website. At the end of the article, it gives 36 strategies to minimize plagiarism. -- Anna
Couple of Random Thoughts Adjacent to Turnitin
In season three of Veronica Mars, in the episode titled "Hi, Infidelity", Veronica is accused of plagiarizing a paper because someone submitted her paper to a plagiarism detection website after she wrote it in an attempt to frame her. Okay, so this isn't reality, but it does raise at least one interesting question: If we are going to use plagiarism detection software/web applications is there a way to ensure that they are used correctly and not tampered with by students? To watch more, or for a study break, you can download this episode from the iTunes store.
Is having access to a site like Turnitin saying your students are guilty until proven innocent? What if you use said site to check only those assignments that you find suspicious? It seems easier than Googling and checking all the sources. Having a tool like this does not necessarily mean we expect our students to cheat, it may in fact, be something we could use to help them improve their citing, paraphrasing, and writing habits.
As far as copyright and Turnitin goes, here's a wacky idea- what if students attached a creative commons license to their work before they uploaded it? Would that be possible? What would happen then? And don't students own their papers from the time they start writing them? Isn't that how copyright law works? --Daly4 10:50, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
Yay Veronica Mars from Linda
That's a really interesting question about giving a paper a creative commons license before it gets into Turnitin I don't know the answer to that. But, if it was the use for non-commercial purposes, attribution, no derivatives license what would that mean to use in Turnitin? Interesting.
In terms of not using Turnitin for every student paper, the fear of some library teachers is that teachers simply use Turnitin for everything because it's seemingly easy. But, do we really need something like this if teachers are trained well on using electronic tools? If the library teacher works with teachers on how to use electronic tools to help students in research and then to check up on student research, wouldn't that be more effective?
Does Turnitin have the full text of the textbook you use for you class? Of all the books in your school and public libraries? It seems like an easy out for the teacher, and not a terribly effective one. Just upload those papers and as long as it doesn't catch anything, why bother actually looking at the sources and the paraphrasing and how they used them? Is it really coming to teachers relying on just one tool to catch any instance of plagiarism? At what point are teachers going to stop reading papers altogether and just plugging them into an application that checks grammar and organization and content? I know I'm exaggerating, a little, but honestly, shouldn't we be focusing on using technology in ways that strengthen the teaching relationship, not make it more detached?
-Becky
Easy Out from Linda
Becky I just wrote something similar above. I've heard stories from library teachers that this is exactly the case that happens. I think this goes back to the "easy" topic that came up last week. We aren't looking for technology to make things easy. We are simply looking for technology to help in effective teaching. Catching cheaters this way may not be effective teaching.
Turnitin an the horse's mouth
The school where I work had Turnitin for the last few years. I was "lucky" enough to work with it this coming year. The subscription is around $1000, and this year no one wants that money taken out of their budget so we're not renewing. There are certainly a lot of problems with the program, but as someone who has had to deal with Plagiarism in a school setting, I understand the reasoning behind it, though this day in age a simple Google search really can do the trick.
Anyway, as fars as I could tell, Becky, Turnitin does not have all books from your school or curriculum at its disposal. And, as mentioned many times before, the texts you put in become a part of the database. Now, for whatever reason, at the school where I work, the job of checking papers came down to the Librarian. Yep, me. And, of course, none of these papers were on a disk or electronic file. So I found myself retyping papers into the program to see if they were plagiarized. That's right, RETYPING THE WHOLE PAPER!! This is not efficient. This is not good for anyone. This should not be my job. Teacher only used this "service" about 4 times last year, which is another reason we're letting it go, but I still don't understand why the responsibility fell to me. I also found it interesting that if you downloaded a paper wrong (which I did once) that paper became a part of the database so that when you reentered the paper it was found to be a 100% copy of someone elses work. This, I believe is rather a bad flaw. --Covintre 21:20, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
Arghhhhh! How awful, Kate.
As novel an idea as Turnitin is, I ultimately feel that it is not worth purchasing...especially at $1000 a year. That is way to big a hit on the budget. I realize that there are going to be students that attempt to plagiarize their way through school, but I think that teachers do not need to rely on Turnitin to catch the student. I can't believe that they made Kate retype entire papers to ensure that students were not committing plagiarism. Kate, when you entered these papers you had to retype into Turnitin, did any of them come turn out to be plagiarized, or did you pretty much just waste all that time retyping for nothing? Turnitin just seems like a complete rip off. I know that when i was in high school, it was relatively easy for teachers to be able to tell if a student committed plagiarism, even without any sort of technology like Turnitin. -Paul
Linda on why the library teacher ends up with Turnitin duties
Kate I've never heard of library teachers having the kind of Turnitin responsibility you mention, however, in schools where it's used as an information seeking teaching tool the library teacher usually is a part of that process. it seems to me the school didn't know what to do with the tool and the teachers didn't want to deal with it. I am surprised that you had to type the papers in. My experience with the product is that you can upload papers from the hard drive or network. Hmmmm
The Turnitin website has a legal statement about their use and archiving of student work. I'm no lawyer (anybody among us an attorney?), but it seems to say they are claiming it is okay under fair use (despite Turnitin being a for-profit venture), because they will only reprint portions of a saved document which appear to be plagiarized (and I guess they are presuming an entire paper would not be plagiarized.) Therefore, since they are not reprinting anyone's paper in full, they claim they are not infringing upon the copyright because they are not doing anything to keep the original author from using his/her work commercially.
p.s. Kate, the Turnitin legal document actually tries to justify its mission as a technology-based version of a librarian checking a paper's sources - see pg 3. Maybe that's where your school got the idea it was the librarian's job....
-Maryrose
Needless to say, I'm not sad to hear we're not keeping it. Definitely NOT my choice of responisibility. I'd much rather lead workshops on copyright and CC that type student papers over again. Though on the up side. Writing one student's paper helped me suggest some outside reading to him... --Covintre 22:13, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
Linda on Fair Use
Well, this is what the student's are fighting. Fair use is very hard to interpret and we'll see what happens with the case to find out if this is a legal version of fair use. Part of the question here is what are student's rights when it comes to the work they do. Does the teacher own the paper as soon as it's handed in and can do with it what she wants. I actually don't think so. (I'm not a lawyer.) Does the student have the right to say it's her work and doesn't want it in the database? These are all legal questions that need to be considered.
From my experience, "Fair use" is a tricky term. I have not had to deal with Fair Use in regards to papers, but I am constantly dealing with fair use laws when working with graphics. When I was taking classes on graphic design, the issue of "Fair Use" was constantly brought up. For example, a student is browsing through google images trying to find an image of a mountain ranges to use in a project. The student finally comes across the perfect image. When the student goes to copy the image to his/her desktop, it becomes clear that the photograph has been credited to someone else and is not for anyone's use other than the creator. However, under fair use law, the student can still copy the image, bring it into Photoshop and then manipulate the photograph (changing colors, removing scratches, perhaps even running the image through a filter). Eventually, when the original image is manipulated enough, the question is raised, "whose image is this now?" Under Fair Use, the student has taken an image that was originally off limits to use in its original state, and turned it into a completely different image, that is unrecognizable when compared to the original photograph. The student has manipulated Fair Use laws. Papers however, are a different game altogether, and a lot trickier of any issue. -Paul
Getting through to the students
I think it's important for students to understand copyright at a deeper level than just avoiding plagiarism, especially as these issues are becoming more and more relevant to their personal as well as academic lives. How do we get through to them though? Is this something that should become an integral part of the public school curriculum? Why isn't this the case already? If so is it something they should be taught in the classroom? In the school library? As a collaborative effort between the librarian and a particular academic department? Through mandatory technology workshops? Especially with the fast pace of the Internet, a lot of this can go right over your head. Is it really effective to just post the policies and copyright reminders on a website? I understand that the motivation for that is more about liability, but does anyone actually read it? Think about how many times we click that "I agree" box and hit "okay" when we sign up for a new service or download software. How many people actually read those terms and conditions? I know I've signed acceptable use contracts when I start jobs, etc. without really grasping what I'm agreeing to. -Becky
Students do need to understand copyright laws as it applies to their everyday life. Every time that they download a video, song, movie, copy a movie etc. they need to understand the ramifications to the artist who created it. I think the industry is trying to educate them, but it is also our responsibility as well. I see copyright law as part of the curriculum of an information literacy curriculum. I really liked many of the ideas Stephanie Gold's article. Having the students and teachers sign an acceptable use policy. Taking it a step further, why not highlight important parts of it during a class. Talk to the students about the licenses the school has to purchase, and what it would cost if the school chose to bootleg and got caught. I guess I'm talking about High School age students now. How many know about Creative Commons? Education is the key, and also making sure that the teachers have the resources they need and aren't tempted to get things illegally because they are frustrated at the lack of materials available to them. -Amy
Linda replies to Becky and Amy
What if the artists don't care about their work being taken for free but the music companies do? That's part of what's going on here. Who owns the work? Who has the right to decide how it is licensed? How do students tell the difference? Hmmmmmm?
Sara responds to Linda's response to Becky and Amy
I want to start by agreeing with Becky and Amy. Students would really benefit from being truly taught what copyright laws are and how they affect what they do all the time. I'm going to admit that I don't understand all the legal jargon myself, but I'd like to know more and to teach students about it. But to Linda, I think that in a class students would need to know quite a bit about the laws before entering in to a thick discussion about who cares if their work is taken for free and who doesn't. Its easy to make the generalization that music companies don't want their music being taken for free and that many artists don't seem to care as much. But from what little I've read the most difficult point to pin down is who wants these laws in comparison to who owns the work and who created it. There is a lot of gray there. People wanting to get exposure are going to put a lot out there but professional artists or musicians are going to want people to either pay or not download their work. I think that to discuss this with students would be a good thing but they are really going to have to understand quite a bit about the laws to do so. And while students should be able to tell the difference, most acceptable use policies should tell them already if they can use the work or not. This could really be a part of a librarian's citation lesson. And one more problem is that as Amy said we are really talking about high school students here, simply because it is a difficult concept to understand, but due to today's use of technology starting much earlier than high school what do we do with students in middle school or younger? How in depth should we go with these laws for them?
But why says Linda
Why do students have to understand copyright law to talk about what it means to use someone's work without permission? And, why is this a high school thing? I know there are explanations in what people have posted so far, but I'm still not seeing an answer that says students at younger ages can't talk meaningfully about this issue unless they know the law. Students at pretty young ages - upper elementary - know what they do with content and why they do it. Students t pretty young ages - upper elementary - know what it feels like and means to them to have someone else use their work. So, perhaps we are misjudging what students will find meaningful to discuss with or without knowledge of law. Hmmmmmm???? Others?????
Anna’s Response to “But why says Linda”
I don’t think that students necessarily have to know the ins and outs of copyright law to begin to talk about the legal implications of technology. I know that I was never explicitly taught copyright and fair use in school, but I understood the basics of it. However, technology has made copyright a more complicated matter than it was when I was in elementary and high school, and I think that it’s important to introduce and at least begin to discuss these issues at a young age.
For my blog this week, I wrote that I spent a lot of time surfing the web, reading articles and web sites on copyright, and that most articles and web sites make a point early on to answer the question, “Why is copyright important?” I think that even at an early age, we can teach students the answer to this. We can ask students what they think is appropriate use of technology by giving them certain scenarios and use that as a starting point for discussion. We can discuss how they feel about work that they make and how they would expect their work to be shared and used. A good website to visit on teaching students appropriate use of technology is Mike S. Ribble and Dr. Gerald D. Bailey’s Digital Citizenship website.
Interesting survey
I stumbled across an interesting survey conducted by School-Library.org regarding copyright infringement cases involving schools. One of the questions asked in the survey was to divulge the “method of case reported.” What was interesting to note was that some were filed by “disgruntled teachers” or “disgruntled students.” Along with some heavy fines levied on the school districts found guilty was the charge given to the librarians in every school to be further educated in regard to copyright laws and the responsibility to provide information to their individual schools. - Janet
Linda on survey
Definitely, the library teacher should know what's up with the law and know how to get the message across. What about the library teacher being an advocate for change in the law as a result of technology. What do people think about that?
I think one of the main roles of a teacher librarian is advocacy, period! We should be required to take a class on the subject. Advocating for changing the law could be easily rallied through all these great social networking tools we've been introduced to... - Tina
More on getting through to students
Yes, it’s absolutely part of the library teacher’s job to preach and practice copyright observation and anti-plagiarism, but, really every teacher needs to verify, as best s/he can, that assignments are original work (and I think that applies to math homework as well as a term paper.) There is, I think, unfortunately, a level of cheating that is culturally acceptable, and we are not going to be able to counter that with a lesson or two. That’s why I think a tool like Turnitin, or at least observant teachers are always going to be important. Students need to understand there is a consequence to cheating.
That said, another part of “getting through” to students is to address the skills they lack – but need – so that they won’t plagiarize inadvertently. This is something Linda referred to in the lecture, and it is echoed at Noodletools (I’m writing my last remaining wiki article on this, interesting tie-in…) The reality is that kids don’t really understand when they have to cite and when they don’t. Heck, a lot of adults don’t understand it! Teachers need to find ways to help students understand the distinction - like students using Turnitin to get feedback before handing in a paper, as Linda mentioned, or using software like NoodleBib, which claims to help the user distinguish between paraphrasing and original thinking.
- Maryrose
I’ve never had to use Turnitin, but I really don’t like the idea of assuming that a student is guilty unless proven innocent. I associate it with the feeling I get crossing a heavily guarded border even if I know I have nothing to be anxious about. I always think that there’s the chance that I’ll be wrongfully convicted. I agree that some kids (and adults) might not really understand when they have to cite and when they don’t. I think using plagiarism detection software like Turnitin to support exercises that teach students about when citing is necessary is a far better use of the technology and could potentially save students from unnecessary anxiety. If anyone is interested in finding out about other plagiarism detection software available and how they compare, check out Renoir Gaither’s Plagiarism Detection Services -- Resources for Instructors web page. -- Anna
To Maryrose, from Linda, on the citing front
Do you think that the problem is in teaching the format of a citation over the why of citing? For example, is it really important that students know where the periods and commas and such go (which Noodletools fills in for you) or that they know why they are citing and why different resources have different citation forms? Does the citing part get bogged down with the mechanics over the purpose? Anyone can chime in on this.
More on citing
I think that both are important. It's not necessary that students memorize all of the details of the various citation formats, but it is important that they learn that different publication venues require different formats (for instance different journals expect different citation formats, and how do you cite a source when you refer to it in a podcast?), and that it is important to conform to the format you have been asked to use. This is less about copyright and more about students learning that they must pay attention to detail and respect submission requirements (be those of their teacher or a publisher or editor). It's not acceptable to just include whatever pieces of information they feel like including in a citation; there are standards for what must be included, and if there is no consistency with the format, how can a reader actually find the information they need? Tools that do this for you are great if you have 50 citations on a paper, but what's wrong with learning the right way to do it yourself and getting some practice paying attention to detail? Maybe this is more about literacy and students being lazy with their work, but if we let mechanics slide in one area who's to say their grammar, spelling, and organization won't fall apart as well? First graders, as far as I know, still don't get to use calculators until they learn to perform basic mathematical functions by hand, or in their head; maybe students should get to use the tools that do your citation formatting for you once they really understand how to do it themselves. -Becky
OK, salient points all round, Becky, but here's what I'm thinking: What if the stringent adherence to cite formats creates a barrier to ever citing sources at all? I think of these cite servicesmuch as I do calculators, as you mentioned as well. But the analogy about learning math before being allowed to do the same computations on a calculator, to me, isn't the same thing. Citing in proper format is such specialized knowledge. Frankly, sometimes I feel like all these different formats were created as a barrier to keep the great unwashed hordes out of academia. I admit, I dislike cite formats enough to have irrational thoughts about them!
But I too feel uneasy about thinking of citing with a service as catering to laziness or ineptness, but I think I just have to get over it, because if students learn how to recognize when material they are using needs a citation, then everything else (i.e. cite formats) is just mop-up. This kind of detail has always been torture to me and my life is better because of citation services. Services like RefWorks and Noodle tools will make learning the difference between APA and MLA obsolete, while insuring credit for the work of others.
--Parks 09:49, 24 July 2007 (EDT)
I have no qualms about encouraging students to use the online reference services! In my practicum, I taught a few classes to use EasyBib, and let me tell you they were SUPER diligent about citing their sources. After they found something they used for their papers, they toggled between windows and cited right away. I think it links back to movitation... students are motivated to use anything web-based! It's so darn tedious to do it the traditional way. I agree with Linda that in the case of citing references, the mechanics override the purpose.- Tina
I'm a firm believer in learning the mechanics for citation, because I really believe that if you know the basics you can understand the logic behind citation making. Like diagramming sentences. But who teaches that in their classes anymore? Electronic Cite sources are great for students. I am a definite fan, except for two things. 1/ If the school doesn't state they have a universal program they want their students to use, like Easy Bib or Noodletools, then you have 14 million different formats and they all operate a little different. 2/ Sometimes the computer programs get it wrong. Really they really do. The students have to know that it's a tool, but it's not the final solution. There need to be ways for students to correct the computers citation mistakes. --Covintre 22:25, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
I know that we're supposed to be talking about copyright, but since we're library teachers, not classroom teachers, the reality of this position, at least in some schools, is that we are expected to teach students how to cite sources. And I think that it's fine to have students exclusively use citation tools if you're focused on just making sure some level of credit it given, but learning to follow a prescribed format is important. As I mentioned, I wouldn't expect students who are writing a term paper with even 20+ sources to necessarily do this by hand, but would it really kill them to do 2-3 sources? It still does take some effort to collect all of the required information and enter it into a citation tool, and while it's really helpful if you have lots of sources, using such tools loses its efficiency if you're only plugging in a couple of sources.
From my experience citing, the biggest barrier has always been finding the correct format. Once you have an example in front of you it's very easy to convert the information you have into the prescribed format. Maybe the problem is that we are not providing them with easy access to these examples. Again, dare I suggest that it might be our teaching strategies, and not the material itself, that is the obstacle? Perhaps we will eventually move to a standard citation format, which would be great for a number of reasons, but the reality is that for the time being there are multiple formats, just like teachers at the same school expect different formats for papers and homework; students should be learning how to follow the rules, whatever they may be, and I don't think that pretending that these variations don't exist is the best path to take for the students.
As I said, I would never expect students to memorize the different formats, but I disagree that the "mechanics override the purpose". Mechanics are important, as we discussed in the context of literacy last week. If you provide them with good examples of how to cite in 2 or 3 standard formats, and ask them to plug their information in, they get to see how it fits, and how the same information can be expressed in different ways. Maybe you could even design a lesson or discussion around getting the students to critique different formats, what makes them more or less understandable or accessible, and create their own format with an explanation for why it is more appropriate for their class. -Becky
My understanding is that we give students as many tools as possible to know how to cite sources, but we can't be expected to always teach the way the teacher wants. Some want APA some MLA some another entirely made up form. Maybe I'm being idealist about that. -KC
Interesting observations! Personally, I abhor creating citations, but I will vehemently argue the need to do so. I think you should know enough about the different citation formats to recognize if one is blatantly wrong, but most professors I have had haven't been too hung up on the right number of spaces between letters, etc. I think you can acquire some of that knowledge by using citation tools, and I don't see any need to prevent students from using them. Maybe have them do some from scratch, in initially, so that they can better appreciate the tools :-)
Linda, I was mostly thinking of students not understanding the difference between paraphrasing and creating original content. I think a lot of people think if you're not directly quoting someone, you don't need to give them credit. I think that must be a harder idea to teach, and a harder thing for a teacher to detect, than blatant copy-and-paste plagiarism.
-Maryrose
Yes and citing a paraphrase is much more confusing... -KC
Wow on Citing
Great discussion.
Here's an assignment I've given to students as a library teacher teaching parts of the information seeking process. Students have to look at citations in a resource that they've used in a paper. For example, in the references section of a book that they use in their own research they pick three citations - from three different types of resources - web, magazine, book, etc. Then they look at what's the same and what's different between the citations. Not in terms of punctuation but in terms of content. They use a graphic organizer to keep track of similarities and differences. Then we talk as a whole class about what they see, don't see, etc. This isn't the most exciting lesson, however it gives the teens a chance to think about what they have to cite and why they cite it. It brings home some of the issues discussed above. The punctuation and grammar of the citation isn't important here, what is important is learning why the resources are cited and what the citations tell the reader about the resources.
This is one of the other things I think gets missed in the whole bibliography/citing discussion. Shouldn't students realize that citations aren't just for them? They are for the reader of the document and that means what?
I totally agree that it's important to teach students what and why they have to cite. Yet, I can sympathize with the frustrations involved in citing information. Before I figured out how to email myself citations through databases and use tools like RefWorks to create and manage my citations and bibliographies, I would lament over the huge amount of time it took me to write up my citations, not to mention recheck them! During undergrad, I remember having to learn how to use various citation styles. It always seemed like just when I thought I was becoming proficient in one style, I’d be ask to use another one. I definitely think that teaching students effective strategies to create and manage their citations can take some of the frustration out of citing. Has there been no initiative to create a simple, standard citation style? -- Anna
All this talk of citations has made me think back at this quotes from last week:
"You read a lot when you blog, and you use other people's words all the time, and instead of writing out a citation in a form that many students find complex, you link to the Web site where you found the words. This is a writing environment that can help students learn how to connect to the ideas of others while being explicit about the connections they are making." Jill Walker Weblogs: Learning in Public. In On the Horizon, 2005, pages 12 to 18.
Really, I remember reading this quote and thinking about linkrot. I don't think there are any legal obligations to leave information that you put up on the web on the web for a particular amount of time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I think that until we can ensure that web pages don't move or disappear, we can't just link instead of cite. Citing where ideas and information is coming from--either explicitly within the text or through references--will continue to be an important practice. -- Anna
Breigh Ann's Thoughts
I have to comment on Tina's first post before I get overwhelmed with the rest. My main confusion in regards to all of this copyright stuff centers on who is protected and to whom the policies are directed. Who are the rulemakers looking out for? Us pleasure users, or the creators of the work? Are there stipulations for the user and the creator in most of these laws? I think that I am missing the distinctions, and that is my main question.
On another note, I smell a professional development day ENTIRELY devoted to copyright laws, and proper internet use!!! (I would not host this day, mind you, but I would absolutely be sitting in the front row.) That could eliminate the dreaded awkward moment when a teacher wants to know why a particular sound clip or video is viewable, but not usable for her own needs.
Another thing- I too would LOVE to take a seminar or class on this kind of thing. Having someone explain this to me in person would be so much better. I'm tempted to go out there to the Kent school district that Gold talks about in her article and sit in on one of those orientation classes! As the IT guy from the Kent school district so rightly says, most teachers these days aren't even clear on the appropriate copying of TEXT. His Untangling the Web class sounds like it would eliminate most of the questions I have, like how to read and understand different providers' policies (so that I can adhere to them and help my students and fellow educators use their material appropriately) and how to properly cite something. As a librarian, I don't think I'll need to worry too much about plagiarism, but I would want to help the teachers in my school deal with that issue. My main concern is helping students with research, and wanting them to be able to use something they find that they are really excited about.
I notice that the districts discussed in Gold's article seem to have rather large budgets devoted to technology in schools. What happens to those districts that don't? Groton is lucky, yes, but right next to Groton is New London, where I went to college and did my student teaching in undergrad. That district barely has enough money to keep its elementary schools open. Half of the second grade classrooms in the town were portable trailers. What happens in those districts? Who takes the time to talk to those administrators and teachers about copyright? Those districts, more than the ones with unlimited resources, can and should be taking advantage of the Internet because it's free, but do they possess the know-how to do so? Are the rules, regulations, and rights known to them?
Breigh Ann, I would love to be able to take a workshop or course on copyright! Not only is the legal language used to describe copyright law often hard to understand, but with new technology, copyright law seems to be getting even more complicated. Copyright also varies from country to country, yet with the Internet we are now able to access information from all over the world. I think if copyright law was easier to understand and more accessible to people, it would help people understand what is legal and what isn’t… Not that this would necessarily stop certain people from infringing on copyright. When it’s easy to do and the likelihood of being punish for the infringement is low, I think there will always be people willing to infringe on copyright law. That’s why I think it’s really important to teach students about copyright—so that they understand why copyright laws exist. Yet, there has to be a balance between protecting the rights of artists and creators and providing access to their works. I believe that the ability to access and share ideas and information is important to fostering further creativity and thinking. -- Anna
The crux of the matter
The ?s about who does the copyright law protect/support is what is at the center of much of the debate right now. There is a strong feeling that the current copyright law that focuses on DRM and such is much more about the Apples, EMIs, BMIs, RIAAs of the world and not the artist (including writers) who created content or the user of the content. A lot of the current debate focuses on the idea that this has become a money discussion and not an ownership discussion.
When it comes to this discussion I don't think much money is required to help teachers and students. Discussions, lessons, podcasts, etc. All can be done for a smallish amount of money. What do others think of the money part of this?
Breigh Ann's Response
It doesn't surprise me that in the legal world the main concern is money. It seems to me, according to Linda's response to my blog, that these copyright restrictions and regulations usually protect the arbiter of the material (like the Youtubes and other sites that host video, sound or visual snippets). But where are the rights of the creator, and where are the rights of the user? Creators have the rights to protect their material from inappropriate use (but really, why put it on the internet if you're going to be super protective of it?)and users have the right to use the material published on the internet. I guess that statement brings me to another question, though. Who defines "inappropriate use"? Or, I should say, whose prerogative is it to define that? The creator of each individual piece? That middle man? Probably not the user. And as for a school setting, money might (but should not be) the issue or the setback. As I said before, I just can't see this issue being a priority in a struggling school district. I see how much these schools focus on pulling up their test scores and keeping their children out of trouble (of course we all realize that using the library can help to remedy their concerns) and I'm sure copyright is the last thing on their minds. But someone needs to go in there, someone who cares, and show them how to use tools that don't cost much to achieve better results. And if they are going to be taught how to do that, they need to be taught how to do it correctly. But perhaps it costs money to have a trained professional go in and do a course for proper web use. I can't think of what else might cost money, except maybe more computers and internet access? I think the real concern isn't money, but time and effort.
I agree that money is not the issue here. Technology and the tools that we use to gather information are changing so fast that I think that in the not-so-distant future part of a school librarian's job description will include being really aware of copyright law and the changes that will inevitably occur in those laws. As school librarians introduce more varied technology tools into their school library media centers, it will be their responsibility, at least in part, to make sure those tools are used in ways that conform to the laws that are in place. This is more a question of job responsibility than of money-Elizabeth Rey
DOPA is Dopey
DOPA is Dopey.
Protecting children and students from online predators is a serious issue. This is not debatable. What is debatable, however, is whether DOPA is something that benefits or harms school libraries. While I am able to recognize the dangers of myspace, facebook, and other social-networking websites, I am also able to realize that if a kid wants to use myspace/facebook/etc he or she will find a way. Rather then restricting students from using websites like Facebook or Myspace, students should be educated about proper internet use, and made aware of potential dangers.
Another problem that arises if DOPA passes, is the issue of filters. Installing filters onto school computers cause as much damage as they do good. While porn will more than likely be blocked, so might information about the human anatomy. Also, if schools are forced to block all sites that host “user profiles,” then schools will be forced to miss out on some technologies that have the potential to drastically enhance learning experiences, such as Pod-O-Matic.
