Talk:July 28

From LIS 460 Summer 2007

Time to process Second Life and virtual worlds - what are your thoughts, questions, etc.

Just got back from Second Life tour with Linda/Lucy, Tina/Kayset. Had a mild conversion to SL's charms during the one hour I spent in their company. Before the tour, my general opinion was:What's the point of all this? There's nothing going on in here that can't be done elsewhere in a much less complicated manner. And maybe that's still true, but I feel the conversion in terms of students.

Because that(often) elusive goal of engagement with students. SL has that all wrapped up. Realized that in the first room we met in. History projects and research would be exciting --kids could use skills attained in gaming environments to get schoolwork done. I believe some marketing types call it synergy...

--Parks 12:23, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

I can see so many potentials for this! Parent and teacher workshops. Virtual library instead of boring web site! I am so excited. My one concern is the equipment needs. We have trouble with PowerPoint conflicts - this seems like it would be the tech people's nightmare. Kris

Breigh Ann I also think that Second Life, though frustrating to me with all its details, is fascinating for kids. I'm sure they love making their avatars, adding their own personal flair (I'm sure anyone who likes gaming and is creative loves to do this). For me, the fact that there is more to do in this virtual work than there is in my neighborhood is bothersome, but I'm sure many people would and do love this! There is a lot for the tech savvy student to explore. I don't know if it's just my slow, old computer, or if it's the program, but it takes a very long time for my computer to process SL commands and to load the screens. I've been frozen and logged out a few times, which is really frustrating. It logged me out in the middle of my orientation, and when I tried to go back and start again, I couldn't get through some parts. I'm sure it's just my laptop being overloaded with stuff, but let that be a warning to anyone trying to play with SL on an older computer. I think maybe all of the details and processes involved in setting up a Second Life account could be very distracting and time consuming. Might be difficult to organize and do this in school. It would take up a lot of time, I'm sure. I guess it'd be up to the teacher to decide if she wanted to take all that time and make this a part of the regular routine, but I'm sure it has its benefits. For example, this could be a great way to do an economics or math project about budgets and money, with the buying and spending and saving of SL money. Operating a business on SL could obviously simulate real life. Virtual games give young people the opportunity to sort of test out being grown ups, without the the serious implications of actually being grown up.

Linda on Breigh Ann's computer troubles I would bet it is the processing speed of your computer along with the graphics capabilities you have. This is one of the most difficult aspects of this technology. You need to have a pretty fast computer with good graphics card in order to really make it work. ---Linda---

Linda on Money and engagement in SL

Breigh Ann and Eileen hit on two really important aspects of virtual environments. The fact that young people are engaged in the environment and what they can do within the environment. They can create, learn, spend, buy, sell, entrepreneur, build, explore, etc. The options are limitless and with teachers - classroom and library - that develop meaningful opportunities the limitlessness is a positive experience for all involved. I'm always thinking of something like the anti-coloring-book when I think of virtual environments. Anyone remember those? See the connection? ---Linda---

I'm actually really excited about learning about SL. I'm still on Orientation Island (I haven't logged in since I set up my avatar at the beginning of the course... only because of lack of time) and I haven't read the two articles for this week yet, but today I visited infoisland.org, and I found a lot of events, workshops, etc. that I'm curious to check out. I can only imagine what else is out there in SL! I understand how it could be bothersome that there is more to do in the virtual world than in the real world, but I think that's part of the appeal of SL: that people can do a lot of things in it that they might not be able to (or might not consider doing) for various reasons in the real world. I'm really interested in exploring the interactivity and creativity aspects of SL. (posted by Anna)

Contents

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Teens and Security

In the podcast for this week, Linda mentioned that non-teens can sign up for Teen SL, but that they have to get a background check and that they are limited in terms of where they can go in Teen SL. Since it's been a while since I signed up for SL, I was wondering if anyone remembers if there are any security measures to ensure that those under the legal age can't sign up for regular SL apart from just checking a box. Does anyone remember? How do applications like SL (that require users to be of legal age) ensure that kids aren't downloading and participating in them? I guess Teen SL is a way to discourage this. (posted by Anna)

Linda on security questions

SL, as with any web-based service, can't be 100% sure that those who sign-up are of the approved age. There are teens in SL and the only thing we can really do about that is educate and talk to the teens and parents about this. When I talk to teens about not being able to go into the main grid (that's what SL is called) they don't really like or understand why that is. The teens say they know how to be safe and they should be given the chance to prove that. We have really interesting discussions related to this very topic. ---Linda---

A related question

How do they know that an adult hasn't masqueraded as a teen to have access to Teen SL? This to me is more troublesome than the reverse scenario of a teen posing as an adult. (btw, this question came from a teen who happened to be overhearing this week's lecture as I listened to it....)

I don't know enough about SL yet to know if you can create a 'closed' group (analagous to a private chat room) that a teacher could set up and be guaranteed that no one outside their class could access. If not, I would think it might be a hard thing to sell to a school district. --- Maryrose

Remember from Linda You have to have a background check in order to be an adult in Teen Second Life. That means no adult gets in unless they are cleared.

In terms of closed groups, in Teen Second Life adults are "pinned" to the location where their background check connects them. Teens can move anywhere in Teen Second Life but because the space is "controlled" by the background check is is a fairly safe environment. Of course nothing is 100% safe. That's an impossibility. ---Linda---

But does a teen need a background check to get into Teen SL?

It's great that they do a background check on adults, but the people who are upfront, admitting they are adults wanting admission into Teen SL are probably folks they don't need to worry about.

The teen who was overhearing your lecture supposed that a predator might pose as a teen to gain entry into SL and avoid the background check.

How do they know that teens are really teens? I guess they can't really know for sure. So teens would have to act with caution there, just like anywhere, when meeting new people.

A Few Thoughts and Questions

I am a bit confused about to whom money is paid when parcels of land are purchased. Also, is there a map of the entire land? Do you communicate by typing? Wanting to learn more about SL, I began reading through various articles and came across a most unusual one. A child had been kidnapped in Europe and it appears that law enforcement from the UK, where the child is from, are planning to issue virtual posters of the girl in Second Life. Another article stated a virtual walk-a-thon held in SL raised $75,000 for the American Cancer Society. There is definitely a great deal that SL has to offer. My only concern is the amount of time that might be spent in a virtual world. ---Janet ---

Linda responds to Janet The $ paid in SL and Teen SL go to Linden Labs the company behind the whole thing. Remember that what you are paying for - beyond the no-cost stuff, which is a lot, is to be able to use server space. Server space for land, server space for images, server space for content.

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Too much video gaming?

I'm wondering what is "too" much time in virtual environments. Why is time spent there more or less important than time spent in face-to-face environments? ---Linda---

Breigh Ann again I think children who become more comfortable interacting with a computer than with other people face-to-face are not developing proper social skills. Remember that a lot of the benefits to group projects in schools pertain to developing children's social intelligence as well as their academic intelligence. While I think computer games can be great tools to help with reinforcement of concepts and skills (that article about assessing computer games was very informative), they should be used alongside standard classroom practices. I certainly think that there is such a thing as too much video game playing. We especially need to be careful if some of our students play a lot of video games at home. Parents might not like the idea of playing video games in school, no matter how beneficial they might be. To talk more about the article, I can definitely see a difference between a game like Math Blaster and something more involved. The more a student is invested in the story, challenge, or character on screen, the more he will engage, and therefore retain. I've seen plenty of games for younger students, though, that lacked the 3-D capabilities, but were just as engaging. I suppose that the detail and intricacy of the game is proportional to student age. The older the child, the fancier the game has to be to keep him entertained. But yes, I can see the merit to using video games to support classroom learning. But again, I say support, and not initiate. Especially when real-life teachers don't freeze up and refuse to teleport their students to the classroom.

can there be too much video? jury is still out

It seems the AMA is concerned that there might be such a thing as 'too much' video game playing (non-violent included). Their chief concern is online role-playing fantasy worlds with multiple players (sounds like SL....)

And yet there may be occupational benefits for surgeons!

-- Maryrose

response to too much gaming

Neat articles!

Of course there is such a thing as too much video game playing, but I think that it depends on the individual, and in the case of minors it's up to the parents and/or the students themselves, NOT the teachers or school librarians.

I think that it is unreasonable to assume that insisting on students doing this sort of thing in the classroom wouldn't carry over into the home, especially if there are assignments that they might not be able to finish in school. Some parents may not want their kids playing video games at home, or may not have computers that are capable of supporting these games. Kids might feel like they have an excuse to disregard their parents' wishes because "it's for school"...could be tricky business. -Becky

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Virtual reality versus reality

This RPG thing is a subculture; most people, and most teens, are not involved, and in my experience many of them haven't even heard of Second Life. So if you want to talk about "meeting the teens where they are", maybe we should be thinking up drinking games that teach library skills, setting up librarians on beaches on Saturday nights to catch kids and try to suck them in, or paying for a stall at the mall and offering free pretzels for kids who are willing to sit with us for a few minutes. Fewer than 1.7 million people around the world have logged into Second life in the past 2 months. How many adults are there in the world now? (didn't see numbers for teen second life, anyone have those?) You can say that there are 1 million users in Club Penguin, but think about AIM and other such services...unless they collect your SSN or some other personally identifiable information, there's no way to tell how many kids have signed up for 2 or 3 or even more accounts! And how many of those 1 million accounts are active? Even if there are 1 million kids actively using the service, that's a tiny proportion of the kids in the real world.

Rice did a decent job of showing ways that some video games are like real life, and that students can have some of the same cognitive challenges there as in the real world, but if you look at that list, middle and high school kids have to do all of those things every day. The politics and social scene for these kids present the same challenges. What is the virtual world offering that kids don't get in real life, except maybe the ability to pretend they're doing the same thing in a different time or place? You could have them read and write historical fiction and accomplish the very same goals.

What does this have to do with the school library? Can someone please tell me how you would use this in the school library, and what makes it better than using the real library that your students are physically sitting in? -Becky

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A place for everything

Since I first took notice of them at the beginning of the summer, I've noticed that WebKinz are being sold everywhere. Now, you may wonder what this has to do with MUVEs, but this new craze is the beanie babies...what were the numbers for Beanie Babies? Does it matter? We know it was a craze. A craze that died, but one that lasted several years, and one many people cashed in on. I guess what I'm saying is, as Rice says, game design and game play is advancing. It's foolish not to pay attention. This may be a small number at the moment, but that's not to say it doesn't warrant our observation. Where will it go? And how can we harness some of that into our classrooms? Just ignoring it or dismissing it doesn't make it go away, and certainly won't make us better at our job as information gatherers and teachers. -Kate C

everything in its place? First of all, my point was that people in this class keep saying things like "all the teens are doing it" and "we have to meet the kids where they are," and I disagree on both counts. It's ignorant to pretend or convince ourselves that everyone's doing it simply to justify our desire to play around with something new. A lot more people watch TV than play on SL; is anyone suggesting that we somehow work popular television shows into the library curriculum?

It's possible to observe, consider and analyze trends without jumping on the bandwagon every time. Just because something is popular with a small group of people doesn't mean it is a good teaching tool. There are tons of tools out there, and it's important to prioritize, to think about what we want to accomplish and then find ways to reach those goals, not to see a new toy we want to play with and find a way to force it into the curriculum. Maybe in addition to looking at technology and figuring out how to use it in schools, we could think about what's important to teach, brainstorm ways to teach it, and then find the tools we need to do so. I do not ignore or dismiss anything until I have spent some time thinking about it, but this summer I've seen a lot of jumping and not a lot of thinking. -Becky

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Professional Development

I would actually like to set up a world for professional development. If we can hook teachers onto Second Life that way then they may be more apt to use it in their classes. Kris

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Less Instead Of, More in Addition To

If we're meeting teens where they are, don't we want to meet the subcultures, too? Personally, I'd rather meet the subcultures, but I realize that's because I'm kinda one of 'em.

It's very interesting that they are offering classes on Second Life and virtual librarianship in Second Life, over at infoisland.org In order for us to have any idea what to do with it, we need to get in and see what it does. These classes take themselves pretty seriously, charging tuition and all, and sound like they cover an interesting range of topics. I might consider taking one (once my school burn out is over...). There are so many opportunities to do and build things in SL, I couldn't possibly think of so many on my own. I like that they built their own Globe Theatre and had a history lesson about the real one in it. Yeah, I know, why don't we all just go to England, and one of these days, I will, but until then, and for people who can't ever forsee themselves getting there: what a cool way to experience it virutally and to learn about a place so full of history with people from all over the world.

I guess that's the other part of the social thing, it can involve people that there would be no way to meet otherwise. Maybe a teen doesn't want to take part in the social politics of high school, but maybe in SL they can find a community where they feel comfortable and can find a more like-minded group. I'm not saying this takes the place of interacting IRL ( I can abbreviate "in real life", my social-online brother taught me), it just offers other, different, opportunities that otherwise would not be available. The same is true of MMORPG's, it's a community in there, strange as it may seem to those of us on the outside. But then, I wonder if it's more fun, more interesting, better for the social life, to play an RPG in a community online rather than playing it in your basement at home? Not sure. Console RPG's were always a social thing in my house growing up. My brother would play and I'd read the player's guide along with him, giving him pointers. He and his friends would compare game progress. He'd level up my always lacking characters in the hopes that I'd play too. So I'm not sure if one is more of a beneficial social experience than the other...

For all that I am all for the exploration of virutal worlds, there do need to be limits on screen time. We're humans, we require fresh air, movement, and healthy food that is not consumed in front of the computer (my lunch may have involved zucchini, but I did eat it here at the laptop, so perhaps I should pay attention to myself). I think parents should set limits for teens and their screens and encourage activities away from the computer if the computer is where the teen spends all of his or her time. I think older people, college students, twentysomethings, gamers and SL'rs of all ages, need to remember to go for a walk now and then and talk to their friends IRL. Health is important.

So, as with most things, I'm going to advocate a balance. Interesting media deserves some exploration, but not at the price of the exclusion of all else. It's a big world, variety is the spice of... well you get the idea. --Daly4 12:20, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

PS haven't been in SL since I made my avatar, but I plan on heading in early this evening if possible to check out Mythica's Griffin's Nest Library (fairy tales, fables, and myths! oh my! (Erin)

I agree with you, Erin, that maintaining a balance is important. We all need to get outside more and interact with others. That being said, I do find some of the educational activity occurring in TeenSL to be fascinating. Peg Sheehy, the educator mentioned in the article by Ross Perkins. and Cathy Arreguin, was teaching a lesson on immigration to her middle-school class utilizing Teen SL. Imagine building a virtual Ellis Island, complete with the Statue of Liberty and Lower East-Side tenements. Talk about enhancing classroom instruction! ---Janet---

I put most of my thoughts on this in my blog since I knew I'd go on about it but I agree with the "in addition to" idea. I would certainly never say that the library should go totally virtual or advocate doing away with real face-to-face interaction between librarians and students/patrons, but why not have both? The nice thing about having a computer at the circulation desk means that you can theoretically be in contact with people both virtually and in reality. Housebound patrons, patrons with communication issues (I know the alphabet and "I love you" in ASL thanks to Mr. Rogers Neighborhood but that's it), introverts, etc. They all deserve service just as much as the larger majority who come in to talk to us face to face. Every tool we've looked at in this class represents a new opportunity for communication to me. --Amanda

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re: Becky's questions

In one of my classes last semester, we provided virtual reference service via the Internet Public Library, and used QandA NJ, a virtual reference service. One of their big advantages is that they are available 24/7. So is SL ( although I don’t yet know how available the reference service in SL is. ) Am I likely to run out and become a SL expert so that I can offer kids in my school reference service through SL? Probably not, but, I might direct them there if I knew that the service was reputable and safe, especially if I knew that they are there anyway...

The first article we read this week, “…on the MUVE”, spoke about a number of ways people are trying to use this in their classrooms, for a lot of reasons. Student engagement, as Eileen mentioned, is key. But it would also seem to lend itself well to project-based, or “authentic” (funny word to use for a virtual world) learning experiences. Students building things, creating new things, solving real world (or virtual world…) problems, are likely to be the kind of work they remember and really learn from. And the possibilities for learning disabled kids, as the article mentioned, are important, if the virtual world levels the playing field in some ways. Another point is that student work can persist, and be visible to others. Feedback from a wider audience could be really valuable, and maybe others could build on what’s already been done.

So, maybe we, as library teachers, can help educate our administrators and fellow teachers about the opportunities that new technologies offer, and support other teachers who are trying to use them in their classrooms. When I first started teaching, a friend of mine who I consider a master teacher, told me the secret of her success was in presenting the material in as many ways as she could think of, that she felt comfortable with. This, as Erin says, is just one more way. -- Maryrose

Response Sure, I agree that there are lots of interesting classroom uses. And when I was on my "tour" in Second Life this morning I commented that I think one of the most valuable library uses for SL is in fact virtual reference for people who are already using SL. Out of curiosity, what are the credentials of "librarians" in SL? Can anyone set up a library and claim to be a reference librarian? Or is there some kind of check on that? It's my understanding that IPL and other virtual reference services are staffed by degreed librarians... -Becky


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MisterPaul Oh's Second Life Experience

Well, I have to admit that going into my introduction to SL I had no idea what to expect. My 16 year old cousin uses it all the time to stay in touch with his friends from boarding school, and from what I gathered from him, SL is basically like Sims, or a virtual IM. From my cousin, I got the idea that while there is the opportunity to use SL to do homework or other school related activities, it is basically a social tool. After really exploring SL and seeing how much it can truly offer, however, I was left more than impressed. The virtual libraries seemed like a cool idea when I first heard about them, but once i realized that SL actually provided direct links to online databases and websites I was intrigued. My only concern with using SL in a school environment is the fact that it is very easy to get distracted from the task at hand: with a click of the button I can fly, drive a car, or simply chat with a friend. SL offers some great features, but I'm afraid the majority of these features take a back seat to the entertainment aspect of SL. Regardless, SL is a program that I will try to introduce to teachers. In order to effectively implement SL in a school, or school library, there must be a tremendous amount of pre-planning in regards to what students can hope to gain through SL use. Yes, students will be more than interested and eager to use SL, but the real question is "how can teachers/librarians offer SL in a way that is both positive and that complements the school curriculum?" --MisterPaul Oh ps: Linda, how did you find the locations you brought us to? Are there any other locations that you recommend we check out, both for entertainment and to see other "libraries."

Some Locales from Linda

First on the question of how I found the places to which I've been bringing everyone this week. Mostly I found them through things I've read or heard people talk about. Kathy Shrock mentioned NOAA so I checked it out. I read something about the genealogy space so I checked it out. And, I was interested in McMaster because they have a great cafe on the island and I wanted to know what else was available.

You can search for places by clicking on search at the bottom of the screen and then clicking on places. Type in what you are looking for and voila. It's not perfect but it does help. Also, each SL location has a SLURL (Second Life URL). If I'm trying to find someplace I often will go to Google and type something like NOAA SLURL. I find a link and then you can teleport to that place straight from the web.

Remember you can also save favorite places in your landmarks. To do that you click on world in the top menu bar. You then click on create landmark here. That puts the SLURL in your landmarks on the map that you have. To go back to a landmark click on map, then click on the drop-down next to landmarks. You can then select the landmark to which you want to travel. Click on teleport and you are there.

OK, here are the SLURLs for where we've been going and others:

If you find others you can always Tweet about them.

Thanks for the list of locales, Linda. That's a great help. I don't know if I share all of Paul's enthusiasm for bringing this to my teachers, but I love hearing about what classes are doing, and how they can create their own worlds with others.

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on a different note

is it just me, or was anyone else sad to learn that SimCity games don't really pass muster on that rubric. Oh, how I loved that game! The hours wasted, er, spent building my city...is this where MUVE games will some day end up? Kate C

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Thoughts on SL

I'm disappointed that my computer kept crashing (the brand new MacBook Pro no less...) maybe it's some kind of network thing. I'll have to try to explore Second Life more later. Even with the problems staying connected, it is really an impressive world in there. I liked that libraries linked to their catalogs and offered searching strategies, I learned new things about Jewish surnames, i could walk in a fountain, or on a weather map of the USA, I rode on a weather balloon. There are limitless possibilites and plenty of room to improve the interface. I think, as librarians, SL is something we need to be aware of and explore now and then. There are opportunities to do so much. The only boundary is really figuring out how to to everything in there, which, for me at least, is going to take some time. This morning's four restarts have frustrated me for the time being, but perhaps I'll try again this evening or soon. --Daly4 11:01, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Erin, when I was on my tour of SL yesterday, I had a thought similar to the one you wrote above regarding the fact that SL is something that we, as librarians, should be aware of. I agree that SL offers a lot of possibilities... once you figure out how to do things in it! Once I'm done my degree, I'm hoping to explore SL more. (posted by Anna)


I had difficulties with second life the first time i tried to meet linda online. It makes me wonder how much i can really rely on the system as an integral part of my library. But when i did get in it was really cool. to have a virtual library where students could go to use the technology offered (catalogue, databases...ect) could be really great. it may be a less intimidating experience for them...one where they would be more comfortable exploring. Plus they could see avatars from other students and maybe feel more comfortable approaching others online, asking for help, asking for reccomendations, or even just getting to know new people. The internet has always proved to be a place where people feel more comfortable communicating mostly because it isn't in person. thats freeing for a lot of people. So students that may feel uncomfortable searching for certain topics in the physical library may feel more private online. They also may feel more comfortable trying out new technology without people looking over their shoulder. Plus the librarian could have an avatar as well. She could be online at certain times so students could contact her outside of school hours. just a thought, lol -sara


What a fun way to end our class. I had tried to find my way around SL by myself, and was completely lost, and had difficulty explaining it to my daughter, or getting her excited about it before having my tour with Linda. But after seeing what is out there in the virtual world, I can see its appeal to those who enjoy gaming. I had read a blog about gaming in an academic library [1] and tho it relates more to academic libraries, it could fit with teens as well. SL is another community for students to find out who they are, build on their strengths, and in an academic setting it is another tool for teachers to offer in their arsenal. - Amy


Today is the first day that I’ve been in Second Life as a participant rather than an observer. It was a bit overwhelming at first, as any new thing would be, but I’m sure that spending more time there will help me become more familiar with certain places. But the funny thing is that I’ve already spent several hours making my avatar and just figuring out how to navigate in this new environment! I can’t imagine how many more hours/days/months it would take to explore everything that’s there. While there are lots of ways this could complement education, I’m concerned that time management could be an issue, especially if exploring Second Life interferes with homework time and other responsibilities. - Amity

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